A $1.6 billion lawsuit against Fox News is shedding damaging light on what people at the network really thought about Donald Trump and his baseless election. Fraud claims and private text messages between Fox personalities. They express real doubts about any notion the election was stolen while they went on to promote the president’s lies on the air. In a statement, Fox says The core of this case remains about freedom of the press, freedom of speech, which are fundamental rights afforded by the Constitution. And joining us now to talk about this is Floyd Abrams. He’s one of the most renowned First Amendment attorneys in the past 50 years, he’s been involved in decisions from the Pentagon Papers to the Citizens United ruling. And Floyd it’s a pleasure to have you here.
Thanks so much for joining us. You’ve said that the revelations in this case are a major blow to Fox. They’re talking about the First Amendment. Do they have a leg to stand on? They’ve got a real tough case. I mean, journalists get a lot of protection, as you well know. And that’s especially so when they talk about, you know, matters of public interest. And one of the major problems here is that they had people on the air again and again and again who are saying that these voting machines were phony, that they were built for fraud. That they were purposely created for fraud. And at the same time and right after those things are being said, more senior people at Fox are saying, the person that’s saying that is a liar. I know she’s a liar. She lied to me. And and similar statements, one statement by a very senior on air person, which was exactly the same thing. But it was that that person’s a complete nut and right. That person is back again and again on the air.
So it makes it very difficult, maybe not impossible, but really difficult for Fox to defend on the ground that. Well, we’re just journalists interviewing people. Well, in case in point, I mean, this wasn’t just about saving face, but saving the network that pays their bills. On November 12. 2021 reporter over at Fox was pushing back on a Trump tweet claiming that Dominion had deleted or switch millions of votes Trump votes. And we have this tweet up on screen saying there was no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes or was in any way compromised. But then, as you know, Floyd Tucker Carlson erupted in a private message to Sean Hannity saying, please get her fired. Seriously, what the EFF I’m actually shocked at needs to stop immediately.
Like tonight, it’s measurably hurting the company. What do these kinds of private messages show, do you think? Well, first of all, it’s really unusual for a libel plaintiff to be able to get their hands on messages like this because they are so inculpatory that they they sell threaten the ability of of the broadcast company afterwards to say, well, look, we’re just interviewing something we believe. And we don’t know what’s true with just looking for the facts. If they’re saying to each other at the same time, you know, that person’s and not it makes it very hard, maybe not impossible. I mean, no, no, but but it makes it an unusual case to because evidence of that really rarely comes up in a libel case. It’s extraordinary to see behind the curtain in this instance. And here’s another example from November 18th. 2020.
Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham privately reacting to these outrageous claims made by Trump adviser Sidney Powell. Carlson, Tech City. Powell is lying, by the way. I caught her. It’s insane, Ingraham responds. Sidney is a complete night. No one will work with her. Ditto with Rudy. Carlson continues, Our viewers are good people. They believe it. And then Fox kept putting Sidney Powell on the air to spout these outrageous lies. Floyd, that’s your viewers. Exactly. Yeah. Does that mean they defamed Dominion was clear that they defamed they legal question is, can they say we believed it?
And so far as I know, no one from Fox has come forward even even in the course of a lawsuit and said, oh, yeah, that that’s what we believe. We we I myself really believed that that these voting machines were fraudulent. So there’s none of the validation that that occurs so often. In libel cases. And instead, Fox is left with a situation where they have people on repeatedly saying defamatory things about this company and another company that makes the voting machines and at the same time, the, the the offensive things are being said. At the same time, people are saying, you know, these machines don’t work on purpose. That’s fraud. At that very moment, people from Fox, you gave examples of saying, oh, yeah, I know that person’s a liar, and then they invite her back again.
Well, I have to ask a real problem. Yeah. And and I suppose Dominion could argue that they have been damaged in all of this because, I mean, there are just so many people on the right side of the political spectrum who will just never you may never believe a Dominion voting system, you know, election in the future that they’ve been a part of. Isn’t that I mean, isn’t that something that they’re talking about? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, when when entities, when cities, when states want to purchase voting machines are they’re going to take account of the fact. And why would they not take account of the fact that that you know, on a major network in America, there were repeated statements that those voting machines were fraudulent. So that’s that’s why the revelation and the brief filed by by Dominion that that I mean, all these people were saying that’s not true, that this person is not to be trusted. That person who they have on, again, is not to be trusted.
That that’s very damaging to Fox’s case. And Floyd, I have to ask you, because Fox has been such a monumental presence in American news media for so many years, if Dominion were to be ultimately successful in all of this and Fox were to have to pay this kind of huge penalty, what would that do to Fox? What would that do to I guess right wing media in this country? Would it would it force, do you think, some of these folks on the right, maybe on all sides of the political spectrum to be more careful with the facts, be more careful with the truth? You know, I don’t want to dodge the question. It’s just so hard to know and especially it’s hard because so many people have already been so persuaded by Fox and the pretty far right media entities about essentially corruption of everyone else but them that I’m not sure they are going to lose their audience. Or if they do that, it won’t go to another very far right wing entity. We just can’t tell. What we can tell is that this is an unusually highly unusually threatening lawsuit against a major, major media entity.
